The Total case was just a smoke curtain, but the true reason for the divorce between Thierno Alassane Sall and Macky Sall was in the Petrotim case. The ex-Minister of Energy disclosed it in this interview given to "Les Echos." Interview in which he returned to a great extent in both cases, with the positions taken by the head of state on the subject. Deploring the current management of the country, the former apperist says that we are far from the starting ideals, such as "dekal ngor", "homeland before the game." Even worse, note that if Wade's regime was doing things at a traditional pace, the movements of Macky Sall at an industrial rhythm. First part of a rich interview in revelations …
Thierno Alassane Sall : We consider today that, in Senegal, political commitment is not based, in general, on the universal intangible values, which go beyond people and political contingencies, and that are destined only to the greatest interest of the nation and its long historical significance. That is why we believe that our greatest misfortune is not the absence of political programs and visions, but the absence of solid references, accepted by all, shared by all and who do certain things are unacceptable, are not conceivable and that certain faults are intolerable in a republic.
But have you always defended this?
It was always our credo. Remember, when we talk about the APA, we talk mainly about "dekkal ngor", "the homeland before the party", breaks in relation to fundamental elements. There is nothing new under the sun, really. And, in fact, there is nothing new. The great democracies in the world have the peculiarity that there are values not inscribed in their letters and laws, but which constitute red lines that should not be crossed. And once we push people to go through these unregistered codes of honor, they give up. And this is not new, since the beginning of democracy in Greece. People committed suicide for much less than what we see in our states. In this sense, our country is in a state of underdevelopment.
This is what motivated your resignation?
In large part, yes. We went to Abr with enthusiasm. We believe in these great ideals of rupture, democracy, democracy, renewal of our country. Unfortunately, in practice, from the outset, we understand the true Senegalese and African policy, which consists in the displacement of the Constitutions, the patrimonialization of the State and the public service by some individuals, in indescribable practices. just to stay in power, without shame, without any form of dignity and personality. Things that a man would not do. The report of all this was imposed on us shortly. That's why I came out of the government. Immediately afterwards, he joined my duties in Asecna to mark a sabbatical year and shows that they are not political in the sense that we give it.
And who explained his return to the government?
Even the first time, when I went to April day, it was not because it was the ideal option. You have to learn to compromise, to be flexible. Contrary to what people often accuse me, they are capable of a lot of flexibility and understanding in relation to a given situation. April was not the celebration of my heart in essence. Because I basically are a man on the left. But I also understand that life is made of tolerance, patience, so that we can gradually reach the ideal we seek.
So it was for commitment that you return to the government?
I went back to the government, thinking that nothing was too late and we still could keep the essential. He still had the illusion that some comrades could join. I also thought that the president of the republic, as we separated from the basis of a declaration of fundamental differences of view and character on certain things, would understand that my character was soaked and that he, besides him, there are things that he would accept more easily . Maybe he also had the same reading about me, that the crossing of the desert would make me more flexible and malleable. I think that at this point there is a fundamental parenthesis. Because from the first months, I had to realize that things did not change fundamentally, in the sense that government practice continued to move forward.
Do not you think that sometimes you have to try to change things from within?
But, curiously, many have reproached me, among the most radical, for having too much time in government. Life is made of appreciations, but especially red lines that can not be crossed. We must realize that in our system, the president of the Republic has all the powers. When you do not have the ability to listen, the will to share, to open, is not lost.
So the president does not listen and do not share?
The same conditions in which I left to try satiety. I did not ask the sea to drink, but only to preserve the best interests of the nation.
And do you think it's better to defend the interests of the nation than the president?
It's not a matter of weight. I want to keep the facts. There was data; I thanked him, he too, thanked him. What I believe is the best interest of the nation, I am free to believe in him as a citizen and as a politician.
The facts are that you have resigned because we give Total to a block. What happened
By the way, it is more complicated than that. The end of the story is that there might be a period of one month when there was a lot of tension between the executive guardianship and myself, the minister, in a series of points, including the Total contract, which is the straw that broke the camel's back. It could have been a week before, on another topic, for example, the question of approving the conditions in which Timis left the block. Therefore, it is a divergence of opinion on a set of things that made it impossible to live together.
In fact, Total's offer, as it was formulated, was much less interesting. The total was number 5thcompared to Bp, Kosmos and others that were there. And the supply structure was much less attractive and even a step backwards of contracts signed in 2011, 2009, 2004, even before the discoveries of oil. Therefore, in a context where we will soon become a producer of gas and oil, we must say that the remaining blocks have to negotiate with a much more attractive rating. If we must give, we should not sell, in conditions worse or worse than the conditions before the discoveries. And that, I'm just asking you to share, since the contracts are on the government site.
Do you accuse the president of selling the country's resources?
Once again, these are irrefutable and intangible facts. You are free to take the items. The problem in Senegal, precisely, is to limit the question to Thalle Sall and Macky Sall. What I told you is simple: I received the right to refuse to sign a contract that, in its terms, was much less advantageous than contracts that existed and existed for a long time. I refused, the president signed it, the prime minister confirmed it. This, everyone can draw their conclusion. That the intellectuals, at least some intellectuals, hurry to give lessons, come the facts. I also hear that one part of the left says that we should stop discussing and speculating, while loading the previous regimes in much less important matters. People have to take the time to consult both contracts. It's written simple and easy in French. See article 22 of the Petrotim, Far Limited contract, in the Sangomar block and look at article 22 of the contract signed with Total, you will see the difference. It's mathematics of the Cem2 class. It is not about oil or gas; This is the distribution of production. How much does Senegal earn? how much does the other win? When comparing offers, we can see that the offer that was finally accepted was well behind the much better deals. And in addition, history gives me reason, since Total shared, so to say, sell 30% to Petronas. This is what they said. We are a potential country of oil production and everyone comes running. We should not refer to the conditions at which time we were not attractive. But if we follow the code currently in force, if we must sell, sell at least the same existing conditions. It's not the minister's problem. It is a problem of responsibilities. Everyone is responsible for the Senegalese, before God and men.
Have you mentioned the departure conditions of Timis that could be the direct cause of your game, what happened to Timis?
Initially there was this dispute over the valuation of the situation in which Timis would remain in our country, with a license obtained under completely illegal conditions. Now it has been discovered that the conditions in which Timis entered between the two rounds of the presidential elections. And that Timis benefited from a contract that could have been retroactive, because it was signed in March 2012, but is dated January 17, 2012, although Petrotim was created on January 19, 2012, two days later.
You said the Timis case is more scandalous than the Total case …
The press made people echo the report of the General Inspectorate of the State, who did not know when he was a minister. It is clear that Petrotim benefited from a contract in 2012, signed between the two rounds, but in advance on January 17, 2012. It is established that Petrotim was established on January 19. So, when we signed the contract, Petrotim did not exist. It is established that Petrotim and Petroasia, their parent company, have just been born and did not have the technical capabilities or the financial capabilities. The report was established very clearly. But at the time, he did not have all the elements. I had an idea of the situation watching the file of Timis and seeing that Timis worked for a year to a year and a half. Not investing anything, and wanting to go under conditions where the timbal picks up, it seemed to me that it was something I should not accept. Even if we are a poor country, we want our oil, our deposits will be used by those who have effectively made investments, performing real tasks to discover oil or gas and not by fictitious companies that have reached financial speculation.
It is known by the authorities; because the report of the General Inspectorate of State of what I speak is September 2012. And Petrotim continued in our oil until 2017. And Timis wanted to leave under conditions that justified the Confidentiality clauses that he wants to introduce a posteriori in the contract. These are the financial conditions that should be known to Senegalese. The State should be invited to disclose the conditions under which Petrotim was expelled.
As an ex-minister you know these conditions. Why do not you reveal them?
I know that as a minister I could not accept these conditions. And there is no confidentiality about these operations. The contract, the financial conditions, the financial obligations of each party, is written. Once someone has to retire, their obligations to the State or to the other parties, their possible benefits … must be justified by the achievements and commitments of this company, in a solid and unquestionable way. But Timis did not even benefit from the contract, because it is acquired under illegal conditions. To come out with an important timbal, I do not seem to be the interest of Senegal. And that is why, in April, he refused to give approval, since leaving a company, under the conditions, only the minister can approve. He is not the president, let alone someone. But we must follow the next law to see if we will not eliminate the capacity of the minister's blockade. (Riso)
You talk about the timbal that Timis left. How much is she?
Normally it should be in the public domain. There is no confidentiality clause on it. The Senegalese must investigate. As many say we do not know, it's time for who knows and has the responsibility to say what it is.
Apparently, you know, what's up?
I have information. I'll give them when the time comes. I have always said that we need to create a parliamentary committee of inquiry, which at the request of citizens. Those who say that we do not know, or that nothing happened, in good faith or bad faith, that they stop saying it and that the National Assembly or the Prosecutor postpones the question. It's time It's not about elections. It is a matter of upholding the interests of Senegal in all circumstances and at all times. We must fight
At the height of the case of Timis, he was a minister. Have you defended the same principles and positions?
At that time, and I am happy to say it, in August 2016, one after the other, in the interviews I did with your colleagues Oumar Gningue do Rts, Baye Oumar Guèye (South Fm), and just before, with your Tfm coffers, in "Affairs of the city" (Mamoudou Ibra Kane), I said, essentially, that I was given to see that there are reasons to question these contracts, I would like to inform them. It was always my point of view. It is also possible, at this point, for all Senegalese to check. Something else, in February 2016, in the "Les Affaires de la cité" program I mentioned an intangible principle. I said that the execution of an obviously illegal order, even in the army, is to be an accomplice. So, here are the lines I've always drawn. Now, I could not boast what I do not know and did not know at the moment. Because when I questioned the main officials around me, some of whom were arrested by the State Inspectorate, they said they did not know. Or they said horrible banalities about Petrotim's question. No one told me that at the time, there was Tullow's oil that had filed a complaint with the Minister of Energy, on the question of why Petrotim had to have the contract, while they were even negotiating. No one told me that Ige was heard because there are suspicions about the problem. Never … It was when the problem began and the former prime minister (Abdoul Mbaye) said that they were given the opportunity to sign under false information, which caught my attention and that I began to investigate on their own. And until I left the government, believe me, I did not know that the Ige had passed. The first time I heard this was through the press.
Do you blame some of your former employees for lack of loyalty?
In any case, you might be asked to take actions that I have to reproach myself today, but, in good faith, thinking it was because you had not received the correct information.
If you had the correct information, what would you do?
What did …
It's obvious. The truth is that no one can say that I have a share of responsibility in the Petrotim case. Because it was a major obstacle throughout the month of March and April (2017) and this is the main reason for the divorce that occurred. The Total case is, if I can say so, a smoke screen that masks the real reason.
The Prime Minister, his former boss, talks about incompetence …
It makes me smile … there are comments that do not deserve an answer. What can I say is that I am an international civil aviation auditor. I checked some of the largest countries in global civil aviation, in Asia and in Europe. All of my colleagues who know me in civil aviation respected me. And when I was designing the power of Macky Sall, I made a modest contribution, but still contributed. Unlike those who were under other heavens, while they were the closest friends to Macky Sall.
Are you talking about the prime minister who was outside of Senegal?
(Silence). I leave the Senegalese to appreciate the rest … But basically, because of our divorce we are not in such considerations, but in our divergence on how to keep the country. And again, it is our state system that makes us believe that the head of state has almost divine powers and that no one should disobey him, he should not answer or disagree with him. In the United States, the former Secretary of State did not last, because he had profound differences with President Trump. In England, since the Prime Minister was there, how many exits did they exist? There is the case of Nicolas Hulot in France. In this world, he answers first to God, his conscience and laws, and then men, regardless of their qualities. To take refuge, as mentioned here, behind the President of the Republic, to say that he was the one who asked me to do this, is no longer acceptable.
When the authorities sell the resources of a country, they do it Is not a treason on the top?
There, they are the lawyers who will speak. After the jurists, people will appreciate it.